Construction Trailblazers: Paving The Way to Excellence

Samantha C. Prestige: [00:00:00] Welcome to Construction Trailblazers, Paving the Way to Excellence, where we dive into innovation, success, and streamlined excellence in the building industry. I'm Samantha C. Prestidge, your host and ally in simplifying operations and empowering dynamic teams.

On this show, we bring to light leaders who are innovating across the industry and creating outstanding results. Inspiring you to forge your path to excellence. Today, we're diving into the benefits of investing in your employees and embedding cultural values in everything you do, if you're ready to leave behind the daily firefighting and move toward a more streamlined operation with a team that consistently delivers success, then you're in the right place.

Discover more about us and catch up on past episodes at constructiontrailblazers. com. Today, I'm super Keri Smith with us. She is a driving force at Baker Construction, [00:01:00] one of the top names in concrete construction, where they're not just pouring concrete, they're building a great culture. She's all about talent development and has helped create their standout five tour program.

It's a unique take on career growth that gives people a chance to explore, learn, and find their fit. So Carrie, when we talked before, you emphasized the importance of culture, philosophy, and vision in setting your company or Baker apart from the competition. Tell us more about this approach and how that has benefited your team.

Kerri Smith: I think our approach is different in the sense that we really do believe in people first, investing in our people and everything else kind of falls into place afterwards, and so when we look at who we are, our core beliefs, how Mr. Baker founded the company and where we are today. It really is about building better structures and building better lives.

And so that's our vision for the future. That's our guidelines. That's our goalposts when it comes to decisions that we make. [00:02:00] And I think just really digging into that has helped us say, yes, we want to build better structures, but I think you could say, All the construction companies out there say the same thing.

How do we get better? How do we become more safe? How do we beat our schedule? How to become better quality? You know, the whole thing is how do we get better as companies and on projects? We're saying, yeah, we want to do that, but that's not the driving force. Our driving force is building better lives.

And what does that mean? And so when you dissect it is how do we make sure that the co workers here at Baker leave better than they came? And that's really what we believe in. So when we talk about building better lives, how do we give people opportunity? How do we educate them? How do we train them?

How do we give them a career versus just say, here's a job? Go do it. And at the end of the job. Maybe you have a place, maybe you won't. So really believing in the people. And as you start doing that, you realize the building better structures just kind of happens.

Samantha C. Prestige: Yeah, it's an after effect of where you're watering your [00:03:00] grass, right? What I love about that is, it really is about the people first. I've had, it's, this is refreshing for this week. In the past few weeks, I've had a lot of conversations with clients that talk about people first, or they talk about safety first.

And like, this all looks really good on paper. This all looked really good when you guys discussed it in your strategy meeting. Where's the action behind this, right? And we've got to have some tough conversations about that. And it's not always easy for people to realize that, Hey, you are not putting your money where your mouth is, or you're not putting your actions behind where, what you said you do.

And it sounds like you guys are really, again, putting your money behind that and investing in your people. What were some of the. The first steps that you guys took toward that.

Kerri Smith: So what's interesting is the way that we kind of grew up, the way the company developed is we definitely have just a. a core people on a grid values that drives us, but we also have kind of personality traits that are [00:04:00] very similar that you would probably find in about every construction company there is, right?

And there's this competition and how do we get better than this drive? And so we are finding that we were starting to create development plans because we do as a company say, Hey, how are we building better lives? But we were doing it very much in silos. And so we were doing a little bit of great things here, a little bit of great things here, a little bit of great things there, but didn't really take a holistic company view of it.

And so I think that was our first step. I think we said, okay, we know this is something that we truly believe in. It's part of our core values. It's who we are. It's what's going to take us to the next level in the future. Not necessarily all the other things that we think about, but really people are what's going to either hold us back or it's going to excel us.

So how do we get better at that? And then we said, okay, well, we have to do this from a top down. We have to look at the entire company and say, We believe in this 100%. We're going to invest time. We're going to invest talent in talent. We're going to [00:05:00] invest money. We're going to, we're going to really look at how we as an organization can get better.

I think that was our first step. It was kind of this declaration and we say, we're going to do it and we're doing it as one. We're not doing it regionally. We're not doing it by project, but we're doing it as Baker. So that was our first step. And then we kind of, went around and we have what we call talent reviews.

And so Carl, our CEO, and myself went around to every area and talked about every leading key. So we had performance reviews, nine boxes, development plans for over 1, 600 coworkers. And talked about each one individually, where they came from, strengths, weaknesses, what plans they have in place, where do they want to go, that type of stuff.

And started picking up all of these. Great practices amongst the company. So that was kind of the step two. How are we gathering this information? How do we really get to know people and not just on an org chart, but understand where they are, where they came from, where they want to go? How do we help them develop?

And so that was kind of step two, [00:06:00] right? How do you digest this? Because we're a pretty large company and we have great people everywhere, but how are we going to kind of put this in a funnel? And then kind of just Took the best of the best and said, how do we take it? How do we tweak it?

And then how do we make sure it's programmatic enough where it still has the heartbeat, right? It still has that care and concern, but it's scalable. And so that's how we're approaching things now.

Samantha C. Prestige: It sounds like you took almost like a market research approach to it but with your employees and like, really, I want, I value your opinion. I want to hear what you have to say there. And for 1600 people, that's it's, that's a monumental change to try to bring about in the company, right? And it's not going to happen overnight.

I also, I heard you say you took this top down approach and I'm curious, When this, when these conversations first started happening, were there leaders that were maybe not totally on board or like they didn't totally see the value or the ROI of it? And did they stick around? Did they change their [00:07:00] minds?

How did that play out?

Kerri Smith: I think the advantage that we have, I know the advantage that we had that, that Mr. Baker, Dan, who started the company has always believed in people. He will, he is kind of that passionate. person, but also this chaotic genius who didn't realize that this is what he was doing for 50 some years, right?

60 years was really, he would spot talent, unique talent, and it would be any, you know, how he brought me in or he would come back and say, Hey, I saw this young lady loading luggage in the plane. She has fire. We need to, you know, hire her and we'll find something for her to do. So, so just the. The company itself under Dan's leadership has always believed in people, the best in people, we just have to figure out how to get it out of them.

So it wasn't like we were battling uphill with that. And then we've always believed in it. We've always kind of developed it, but it was in its own little segments. Carl came on board, Watson, who was our CEO, and I was running operations at the time and said, Hey, we were, we're going [00:08:00] to do something about this company and so I switched roles into this talent.

Strategy role. And we said, okay, now how do we get by it? What was the most refreshing thing is you do think that you're going to have a lot of this pushback and it was never pushed back from we don't believe in it. We know it's the right thing to do. There was never that pushback. It was more pushback of how are we going to do this?

And is it one more thing? Right. How do we make sure that it's not a one hit wonder? How are we going to make sure this becomes truly the cloth of the organization? So I think that was kind of the only pushback, but as we were going around, so we were in, you know, we're in Denver, we're in DC, we're in Houston and Florida, and we're in all the Ohio, we're in all the offices, and we had the operational leaders not necessarily the presidents, they were there, but they weren't the ones leading the meeting.

And we said, okay, how Let's go through your people. And we had, you know, things all over the walls. And we talked about every individual, [00:09:00] where their career path was, where they fell within the family, the passion that these folks had about their people, it was mind blowing in the sense that they're like, Oh, yeah, you know, so and so they went to this school, or, you know, they didn't graduate high school and came up through the trade, they knew their story, 1600 people, right.

And so the passion for people was there. And I think, Transcribed I think I probably knew it, but it just was confirmed because I think in order to work at Baker, in order to become a leader at Baker, you generally have to have the want to develop people. We just didn't, it was just kind of one of those things that happened, you didn't realize it.

So pushback is going to be, and even now, like some of the pushback is you're changing process, or you're changing something that people created, and so they have ownership of it, so we're like, we're just tweaking it so we can make it scalable. Cool. No pushback, just kind of that, oh my gosh, how are we going to handle this type thing?

Samantha C. Prestige: Yeah, that again, [00:10:00] refreshing to like that you're able to do that with the employee size that you've had. And that is healthy conflict. People are bought into like the goal. And now we can like have a healthy conflict and disagree on what we think the best approach to achieve that goal is. But we're still all bought into like succeeding and winning together.

And I've heard similar stories, but with smaller companies. So I'm just going to reiterate, The confetti and the admiration to be able to do it with over a thousand employees across the nation and all these different regions. So let's take this back to, I threw in for any of our listeners that were paying attention in the intro, we threw in the five tour program verbiage at the beginning.

So with all of these kind of employee interviews and hearing these stories, was that the start of that program and kind of walk us through what that looks like today?

Kerri Smith: Again, I go back to, what's funny is that everything that we're doing now is just an iteration of something that was started when the company was [00:11:00] founded. And so it's just kind of morphed into this. So as we were going around, and so I'll give you a brief thought of five tours. It basically says, how do we two things we want to make sure we want to make sure when somebody comes into the organization that they're fit for the organization, culturally, we can teach anybody anything.

But more importantly, the organization is a fit for them. And so we are looking at saying, Hey, we're not a fit for everybody. And we don't want people to waste their time or energy if we're not right for them as well. And so it's not just the one way street, it's a two way street. And so we wanted to make sure that as we're bringing people in and we're investing in them that all the way around, we are a right fit.

And so that was the theme that we picked up on and then we picked up on this other theme of we also need to preserve the culture and we want to make sure that we stay true to our roots. We want people that really understand and appreciate what we do. We pour concrete. We do a lot of other things, but really we [00:12:00] pour concrete.

And so, We wanted to make sure in order to be a culture fit in order for us to be a culture fit for you, you really have to know what we do and how we do it and why it's important. And so we, there was a theme across the company of, Hey, you start in the field, right? I started in the field for concrete.

You have to really understand the people. You have to appreciate the hard work that happens in the field. And so there was that theme. And then there was a theme of we want youth to come into the organization. And we want to make sure that they really have a passion for what they do. So although you might come in and you say, I want to be a project manager.

If we don't introduce you to other parts of the organization, there, you might be a phenomenal superintendent or you might want to go into estimating because really, I was a biology major. We don't know really what we want to do and what our

Samantha C. Prestige: of all, right?

Kerri Smith: And so there was also this, you know, kind of how do we make sure people are well rounded within concrete [00:13:00] construction.

How do we make sure that they come in and they get an opportunity to understand all the parts of our business? But again, back to that, making sure that we're a fit, how do they also understand that they're a culture fit? And part of that is, And part of that is grit and where does that come from? And so that was a common theme.

And then we go to our DC group and they've kind of taking all of these themes and said they, they created what they called five quarters at the time. And it was very similar to this that every other group was doing. It just wasn't as formalized. And it was saying, okay, you have four quarters.

Three months, let's just say stops. And that's your core curriculum. And so you have to go work in pump place finish or you have to go work in carp, be a carpenter you have to go. And so you have these be in safety or quality or estimating, but you have these four cores, depending on the business that we're in, because we have different types of business.

And then you have an elective and the elective could be, Hey, you know, I think I might be interested in them. [00:14:00] And so you go spend some time in bed. And so they have taken the theme and created it and they've done a phenomenal job of it. And then kind of that taking it and say, how do we scale it?

How do we bring it to life? We very much looked at it as. Kind of this five tours because we linked it to the military that saying you have a tour of duty and your tour of duty, you might not like it, but you got to learn it right. And you got to go through it. And it's only three months.

So anybody can get through that. And so it was kind of this let's link it to the mindset of you're going on a tour of duty. Yeah. And at the same time, we're having a lot of different conversations around kind of the importance of moving across the organization instead of people just focusing on moving up the organization.

And so how do we make that, how do we make that lateral move? just as important as the vertical move. And so those conversations are happening. And so it kind of morphed into this five [00:15:00] tours program where it can happen. Yes, when you first start with this, but it happened to me, I've been a baker for 20 years.

And so I was taking from operations and latterly moved into talent and strategy. It's just a tour of duty for me to get wherever my final destination is. And so that's The birth, I guess, of the five tours program and the thought behind it and the philosophy behind it. And we're excited about it.

We think it's going to do great things, not just for the company, but for the coworker.

Samantha C. Prestige: Yeah, I can, I totally see the benefit of this. For our listeners though, there's two things that I'm curious we can dive into. First, what we're looking at here is what most people would kind of think of cross training. Which has been done in very sloppy ways in other companies, very messily without structure and kind of the dissolution of processes sometimes whenever someone has been cross trained on something else and you don't have the structure to bring them up.

So I also if we can be a little vulnerable, are there any stories there of when maybe this first [00:16:00] started out or when you were taking people into different tours where we weren't executing exactly how we needed to, and things got a little sloppy and we had to get back on track.

Kerri Smith: So two things that come to mind that is, and part of why we changed it to tours instead of quarters, everybody learns at a different pace. And so, although the original thought was. You're going to be here for three months, it might take somebody six months in order to understand the competencies that we want them to understand in that tour.

And so there was some further either people were like, yeah, I get it. But, you know, they only check 50 percent of it. And then we didn't want them leaving feeling like Oh my gosh, I only got 50 percent of it. So, so it became less of a time, a three month time period and more of a, here's what we want you to learn and appreciate about this.

And so that was a bit of a fumble that I think we are, we're working through. We now changed it and we'll see how it kind of, how it flexes as you go along. We also had the fumble of, we thought maybe this would just be something for, you know, Are [00:17:00] kids coming out of high school or college? And now we're saying, why not have it for new hires as well?

Because you could be in your 30s and say, you know what, maybe I want to try this out, or I need to learn a little bit more about this. And so that was a fumble, but just kind of more of an aha moment. We need to really kind of think through what this looks like. So that was something else that we. We learned about it.

And then the other thing we actually had a lot of head trash. I think we they're probably not going to be happy for me saying this, but we took this. A lot of our recruiters were saying, Oh, no, like we can't if we get a kid out of college, one of the well known, you know, colleges, they're not, they're going to come in and they're going to want to be a project engineer or an estimator.

They're not want to go in the field, right? Like we're going to lose top talent. And we said, Then they're not a culture fit.

Samantha C. Prestige: There you go.

Kerri Smith: And so that, that was probably the biggest obstacle. It wasn't as easy as that conversation, right? We had to go back and forth and [00:18:00] back and forth. And then we had to say, no, we really believe in this.

We truly believe in what we do. And if you can't appreciate what we get paid to do, which is pour concrete, then you don't belong here. And will we lose top talent for that? Sure, but we'll probably lose them anyway, right? And so it's also a great retention tool, I think.

Samantha C. Prestige: Yeah. I mean, again, that's when you have such a strong culture and everyone's bought into like, this is the goal, we can have that healthy conflict to then be confident in the decisions we're making, be confident in who we're going to say no to. And like you said, it's not easy. I'm sure it wasn't a one conversation, right?

It wasn't just a Slack message of, do you like this idea? No. Okay. Something else, right? This is like real conversation that it's affecting real people's lives. And we've got to be like, Confident in the direction we're going. Thank you for kind of opening up about not quite funnels, right. But just continuous improvement there.

The other thing I see with cross training and kind of all of this development is some employees or some managers, maybe not seeing the ROI of [00:19:00] this. So if we were to shift gears a little bit to the practical results, the impacts that we see in projects with our customers, business revenue, walk us through that.

Yeah.

Kerri Smith: of studies out there when they talk about the cost of a hire. And so when you just look at numbers from a retention standpoint, especially retention when it comes to, we're investing in people for, Five or six years, right? So when you look at our turnover and you're saying, why are we losing people at five years?

And your original go to is, oh, because the competitor is going to pay him way more money than we pay. Yeah, maybe, but really what's at the core of it. And so I think if you kind of pull that back, a lot of it is, maybe it's not what they want to do, or they felt like they're stuck in a path and they don't have, they don't have an opportunity to test out other things.

So this gives us an opportunity to say. We're not going to waste your five years. Forget about the company's five years. Let's really go back to building better lives, right? Five years and an [00:20:00] individual, especially when you're younger, those are very important years because you are establishing yourself.

You're understanding what you want, what you don't want. And so we don't want to waste people's five years either. And so, I think thinking about it in that light instead of how much does it cost us to replace this person also gives us an advantage because it's genuine and we're saying, okay, well, when you look at return on investment, we do want people that's excited.

We want people that want to grow. We want people that love concrete. We want those folks. So, so not only do you help with the retention of maybe those five years that kind of are like, this isn't for me. for having me. But you also save so much and just the weeding out. So we've had people that come in and after three months say, this is not for me.

Okay, great. We wish you luck. Right. And so there's that early on understanding with, do you really want to go into this? Or is this just like something you thought was cool because you wanted to build a stadium, right? Like where do you fit in [00:21:00] here?

Samantha C. Prestige: To that military, right? Like, camp ain't easy, y'all. Like, we're weeding out the people. You want to be a marine or you want to be a ranger or a SEAL, you got to go through this tough stuff and I'm happy to weed you out. You're saving both of us time, right?

Kerri Smith: And there's savings. So when you start doing that and then you gain, which I think is a return on investment that people don't ever talk about, you start gaining the trust of the projects. Because now they know when we send you somebody, you're not just getting some like you're getting somebody that's serious about it.

And they're going to want to now invest in training and development and helping coach and mentor people because they know they're serious about it. And they went through it. So they were also giving people kind of street cred, right? When they come in as well, because it's like, Oh, well, you're just not a college graduate with an iPad.

Like you were pouring concrete, you're in the, you're in the poor crew. And it just helps that kind of connection with our veteran veterans, back to military, with our folks who've been here for a while, [00:22:00] that's experienced to say, Hey, if they went through the five quarters or the five tours program, we know they're legit and they want to be here.

So now we'll spend time with them. So a lot of soft costs, I guess, that you would look at from a return standpoint.

Samantha C. Prestige: but still valuable nonetheless there. So on that note, though, we're talking a little bit about people that are kind of weeding themselves out. And I think that what I also see in some cultures where they really are trying to be people first, it looks good on paper, they're struggling with the execution, is also making the tough calls of like, when does this person, they just really don't fit in the culture.

What is the amount of effort you're going to put into them to try to help them get back on track versus when do you have to say goodbye? So have you had moments like that where you've just you've tried everything you can with someone and they aren't a good culture fit, or do they usually weed themselves out in that first 90 days?

Kerri Smith: I would say a little bit of both. I, Because I just threw a recruiters on the bus thing that they necessarily believe in the five tours. I'm going to also give [00:23:00] them kudos on this side. We have a really good recruiting staff that kind of has that on paper and gut feel of this probably isn't a culture.

So we have a very good initial filter. I would say, you know, we're looking for. Farmers for athletes for we're looking for a certain type of individual, somebody that had to work their way through school, somebody who's hungry, right? Like it was my family's been in construction. I understand it. So we have some kind of what we think.

And so they do a very good job of filtering to begin with. So, so this is kind of the step two filter that says, I would say, Okay. More often than not, they either weed themselves out or we look at ourselves and say, yeah, they're not fit for this position, but they really excel over here.

And so I think there's probably more of that type of conversation because after you go through, you know, five tours, so, so you're here for over a year, you're kind [00:24:00] of getting into the culture if you're still here and you've Through and you're passionate, we're going to put everything into to help you learn.

And so again, it goes back to once they go through that, people are more willing to say, Hey, maybe they're a little bit slow on picking this up, but I want to invest in them and help them carry them along. So not a lot of it has been us saying you're just not a fit. Most of it is probably the self weeding out, or they don't even start with us to begin with.

Samantha C. Prestige: Or they're just like, this is too much. I'm going to go the easier route. What I'm also hearing though, time and time again in how you're explaining things, is there's structure and there's intentionality behind everything you're doing. And like, hey, if we know that they're not a fit over here, they might be a fit over here.

What I'm assuming is that you guys have also really great job descriptions. Like you really understand, like, what, you know, When you're in this lane, this is what you should be doing in this lane. Was that also something you had to develop after you did kind of these market research employee interview [00:25:00] type of things, or was that also something Mr.

Baker always had?

Kerri Smith: We are not great at things like role descriptions. We have them and they're phenomenal because we have a great HR team who says we need this. What we, what, so I'm not gonna say oh my gosh yeah we have this great system, but what we have done is more of job expectations. That we're really good at.

And so we kind of do both, right? There's the role descriptions that we have created that helps with recruiting. Here's, you know, the role that you're looking for. Here's kind of what, you know, the job will entail. We've taken that and back to the DC group is very good at the program, the structure type stuff has said, okay, Kind of what's more of the role profile?

What is it that we're expected to do? Because we have such a wide variety of projects. You could be on a small project that could just be a tilt project, or you could be on a huge [00:26:00] nuclear facility. Right. And so our, we're so diverse in the type of work that we do that we have to make sure that we take all of that into consideration as well.

And so, so there is a bit of variety and a role description. So a, Project Manager will look very different on a small, like, commercial industrial project than they will on a huge nuclear facility. And so although we have those role descriptions, we said, yes, but what are they expected to do on this particular job?

Their next tour of duty, what does that look like? And then how do we, And then we create kind of this progression profile that follows them. So I think that the role descriptions we have, they're good, but it's more of the how do we put a tool in the hands of the project team, not going to read a role description. But it says, hey, before this person leaves, they need to learn these seven things. That is what, what helps us get those folks, one, excited to teach a [00:27:00] mentor because it's clear, but the other side from the learning side of, okay, now I have somewhat of a map. So we're kind of pulling away from that a little bit the traditional role descriptions and trying to figure out how do we make it simple and tactical.

So

Samantha C. Prestige: I love that you brought that up because I think kind of with everything we're talking about, I'm sure some people might feel like, Oh, that's kind of abstract or like that might be unattainable. It's like, you got to start simple first and going back to like expectations. You can't do, sorry if this is offensive, but you can't do jack shit with your team.

If you don't have expectations for them, they don't have that map. They don't, they're not bought into anything because they don't understand what they're striving for. Right. So we've got to have those expectations first. ~So on that note Oh,~

Kerri Smith: what are folks doing in the field is. Mind blowing. They have a thousand things going on at all times. They're putting out fires they're building. So the last thing in their mind, right, especially when you have a great superintendent or project manager is, oh, what am I going to teach this person today?

Because they're building incredible structures, but when they have kind of the, [00:28:00] oh, here's what I needed to do, they bring that into their work plan and then it doesn't become, oh, I forgot to do this. It just becomes part of their crazy day and another. thing that they have on their plate. So

Samantha C. Prestige: And it's part of the routine with like, this is what it means to be a part of Baker, to be a member of this winning team, right? So, okay, going back to, for some people this might feel a little unattainable because it sounds amazing and awesome what you guys are doing. So for those people that might be a little nervous, what is like the first step that you'd recommend they do?

Whether that's tomorrow or next week, how do they get started on this path?

Kerri Smith: believe in it, 100%. Believe in it, believe and do it for the right reasons. Do it because you genuinely want to help a person or you want to improve them. You want to build a better life for them. Don't do it because you think it's going to make your project better. You have to come from the right.

It will make your projects better in five years because you will have trained them and developed them and all that stuff, but don't. [00:29:00] Make sure that your intentions are correct. And then I would say take a step back and just try with one role, right? What's the most important role in your organization?

It could be, hey, we really need to develop estimators or it could be for us. We're really focused on developing superintendents and construction managers. So, so take just one simple role and say, okay, how do we, Thank you. How do we develop them? And if you think that a great estimator needs to spend time in the field or needs to spend time in financials or spend time here, then have them do one quarter that's outside of their, where you think they're going to go.

And then see how it feels.

Samantha C. Prestige: Yeah, I love the hey, start small, keep it simple, right? See how it goes. What are the benefits? Where could you where did you fumble a little bit that you can be a little bit better and just kind of believing in your people?

Kerri Smith: I would say also don't think it's going to be perfect. Don't make it perfect. Don't make it a process. [00:30:00] Make it a way of life. Because one of the things that we talked about when we did it the five tours, we're like, okay, what are our four core and what are electives?

Well, then when we started looking at it, you know, again, the folks that are building nuclear work, their four cores might be a little bit different than our commercial work. And so have flexibility. The point of it is just developing people. So don't make it so stringent that you feel boxed in and then you don't give it a chance.

So it's going to be messy.

Samantha C. Prestige: And that's

Kerri Smith: messy. It's not going to be

Samantha C. Prestige: right? You guys didn't start out with structure, right? There was just things that you kind of wanted to do, wanted to explore, you had a good culture to start with, and then you started to develop it and see, okay, how can we make it better with certain structure, right? And there's that big difference between excellence and perfection will lose every time.

Kerri Smith: Pretend.

Samantha C. Prestige: All right, well, thank you so much, Carrie, for joining us today. If you want to find out more about Carrie, her LinkedIn will be linked in the show notes. We'll also link Baker [00:31:00] Construction if you think that concrete work sounds awesome. And if you want to understand more about, like, how can you really set some expectations and build your winning team, we currently do have a free mini course available.

on building your winning team. We're diving into interviewing, hiring, all the do's and don'ts, so you can also grab that in the show notes, or you can also tell us your story on your own hiring or excellence journey at hello at constructiontrailblazers. com, and we'll see you next time.